I am getting sick and tired of the pillocks posting on this and other forums about the fact that we don't need CCTV and how wonderful WBC are for saving us money.

The CCTV is absolutely essential here in Newbury town centre otherwise we are going to be overrun with criminal activity and anti social behaviour.

Just this week, two police officers attempted to arrest a burglar who was caught, breaking into premises at the rear of Bartholomew Street. Unfortunately he escaped (allegedly he bit one of the arresting officers).

In the old days when we had a fully operational CCTV system, the officers would have been on their radio to the central control room. From there fully trained operatives with their local knowledge would have been able to assist using the cameras to track the culprit as he left the area, guiding in other officers who would hopefully have been in close proximity.

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

To suggest that the population of Newbury is criminal and anti-social and it's just CCTV preventing them Newbury from being overrun by such behaviour is just wrong.

I say let's save some money and scrap the lot.

Quoted from user23.3

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

User you really have got your head stuck where the sun don't shine. Newbury has survived for centuries without lots of things, but times have changed.

To suggest that the population of Newbury is criminal and anti-social and it's just CCTV preventing them Newbury from being overrun by such behaviour is just wrong.

Nobody is suggesting that the population of Newbury is criminal or anti social. There is just a small element causing the problems. This problem has to be dealt with and CCTV is one way of keeping it under control.

I say let's save some money and scrap the lot.

If you see a crime being committed or somebody being assaulted in the street are you one of the people who look the other way and say "I didn't see anything". CCTV is essential for gathering evidence where there are scores of people around, but for some strange reason nobody saw anything.

Get a life user and stop trying to defend some of the ridiculous decisions being made by WBC.

Quoted from BrianB

If you see a crime being committed or somebody being assaulted in the street are you one of the people who look the other way and say "I didn't see anything". CCTV is essential for gathering evidence where there are scores of people around, but for some strange reason nobody saw anything.

Get a life user and stop trying to defend some of the ridiculous decisions being made by WBC.

Perhaps it's the climate of fear that CCTV can create, when everyone is watched some feel under suspicion even though they've done no wrong..

I'm far from defending anyone, I'm saying scrap the lot, save some cash and stop playing Big Brother with Newbury.

Quoted from user23.3

Perhaps it's the climate of fear that CCTV can create, when everyone is watched and some feel under suspicion.

I'm far from defending anyone, I'm saying scrap the lot, save some cash and stop playing Big Brother with Newbury.

What a lot of bunkum this man spouts!

There are 3 people who should be banned from local forums User23, GMR and Richard Garvie perhaps also Simon Kirby for his private vendetta against Newbury Town Council

While I agree with your summary on user23, I don't agree that they shouldn't be allowed to post.

What seems a near certainty is that the council have buggered up the CCTV system and in doing so, possibly lied about the impact of the changes.

BrianB, it is up to people like you to speak up if what you say is a real issue.  Or perhaps  political ambition might have tempered your language lately?

Quoted from scaramouche

What a lot of bunkum this man spouts!

There are 3 people who should be banned from local forums User23, GMR and Richard Garvie perhaps also Simon Kirby for his private vendetta against Newbury Town Council

That's the thing about forums, there's people with opinions different to your own posting on them.

Luckily for most they have enough wit to offer a counterpoint and as a result don't dismiss other's views as bunkum whilst offering none of their own.

Quoted from user23.3

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

To suggest that the population of Newbury is criminal and anti-social and it's just CCTV preventing them Newbury from being overrun by such behaviour is just wrong.

I say let's save some money and scrap the lot.

In the old days police had whistles? Is that back far enough for you User? CCTV systems have been proved to be a very good tool for helping to reduce crime just as helicopters have proved far more useful than police cars. Of course we can only have what we can afford I do understand this? The point of the issue is that the council has tried to make savings on the CCTV system but instead has allegedly degraded the system so much that it has not even detected a single occurrence since before Christmas. That is not saving money that is actually wasting money? It would have made more sense to say they are scrapping CCTV rather than saying they are upgrading? But of course with elections coming up that would not have gone down very well with the electorate would it?

I do not believe Brian was implying that Newbury's population is full of criminals and anti-socials just that a few persistent offenders, mainly related to getting their fix, are causing mayhem in Newbury and are getting away with it because the council have made a dogs dinner with the CCTV system to cut costs and have failed miserably. Instead of spending man hours trying to cover up they should come clean and ask the taxpayers are they prepared to pay for a decent CCTV system or not? Then we should have an independent inquiry as to exactly what has allegedly gone wrong and why the council has misled the taxpayers and business community alike?

Quoted from BrianB

I am getting sick and tired of the pillocks posting on this and other forums about the fact that we don't need CCTV and how wonderful WBC are for saving us money.

The CCTV is absolutely essential here in Newbury town centre otherwise we are going to be overrun with criminal activity and anti social behaviour.

Just this week, two police officers attempted to arrest a burglar who was caught, breaking into premises at the rear of Bartholomew Street. Unfortunately he escaped (allegedly he bit one of the arresting officers).

In the old days when we had a fully operational CCTV system, the officers would have been on their radio to the central control room. From there fully trained operatives with their local knowledge would have been able to assist using the cameras to track the culprit as he left the area, guiding in other officers who would hopefully have been in close proximity.

Maybe the plan was to say everything was working but lead us to believe it was useless. They could then scrap it and nobody would complain?

Seriously though, we do need CCTV and rather than sending it to Windsor, they should of merged it with the CCTV operation at the Kennet Centre. Might not have saved £250k a year, but would have saved a lot and local knowledge would have been retained.

Quoted from user23.3

Perhaps it's the climate of fear that CCTV can create, when everyone is watched some feel under suspicion even though they've done no wrong..

I'm far from defending anyone, I'm saying scrap the lot, save some cash and stop playing Big Brother with Newbury.

Surely if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear? Would you also ban police officers from patrolling because you may come under suspicion of doing something illegal?

Most people have stated they would like more police on the beat so surely it would be no different if we had more cameras? They are no different than other tools police use such as radios, cars, dogs, helicopters etc, Just think of all the times a camera in a police car or from a properly working CCTV system has proved beyond doubt the offenders guilt to a court?

It is no use trying to duck and weave User the council have been rumbled and the taxpayers need to know who was to blame and how such a fiasco has been allowed to continue. I know you are trying to create a smoke screen so that it does not come out until after the May elections but someone has to be accountable for this?  

Quoted from Cognosco

Surely if you are doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear? Would you also ban police officers from patrolling because you may come under suspicion of doing something illegal?

Most people have stated they would like more police on the beat so surely it would be no different if we had more cameras? They are no different than other tools police use such as radios, cars, dogs, helicopters etc, Just think of all the times a camera in a police car or from a properly working CCTV system has proved beyond doubt the offenders guilt to a court?

No, bobbies on the beat and cameras are quite different. To use modern terms we've taken a step backwards from an interactive crime prevention presence on the streets to a one way, unquestionable monitoring of everyone and everything.

I don't buy the idea if you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

Quoted from user23.3

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

To suggest that the population of Newbury is criminal and anti-social and it's just CCTV preventing them Newbury from being overrun by such behaviour is just wrong.

I say let's save some money and scrap the lot.

User I worked in Bart Street for 2 years..... south end where there are no cameras. I have had scum snatch stock from my window display.  I have been forced to lock myself in the shop on one or two occasions due to the fact there are druggies sitting on my windowsil as high as kites. I have St Barts school kids who think its funny to bring their bikes into the shop and swear and spit at my staff.  Then of course there are the endless piles of dog sh*t to clear up every morning. It IS a minority group - and I know most of their names nowadays.  However, I can assure you it was bloody intimidating cashing and locking up particularly after dark.  If I could have walked out of the premises at night knowing "big brother" was watching me I may well have stayed another year, but quite frankly enough was enough.  

What I would ask you DIRECTLY is would you be happy for your mother/wife/daughter to leave work under those circumstances every night ? ..... or would you feel a little more comfortable if you knew someone somewhere was keeping a helpful eye out for her ?

Quoted from user23.3

I don't buy the idea if you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

Nor do I, but we do have the DPA for that.  The CCTV system can be useful for more than just law enforcement.  It can be used to monitor all sort of incidents, like accidents and emergencies.

Quoted from user23.3

No, bobbies on the beat and cameras are quite different. To use modern terms we've taken a step backwards from an interactive crime prevention presence on the streets to a one way, unquestionable monitoring of everyone and everything.

I don't buy the idea if you're doing nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

So explain to me what is the difference between a bobby watching you with hes own eyes or if he is watching from a couple of miles away through a camera?

Bobbies are not only there to apprehend people are they? They assist with traffic problems if required? They assist with medical emergencies? They can see if a problem may be getting out of hand that may cause a breach of the peace?

Surely a well trained CCTV operator with good local knowledge could do the same but with a far better vantage point than a bobby on the beat?  

Quoted from Cognosco

So explain to me what is the difference between a bobby watching you with hes own eyes or if he is watching from a couple of miles away through a camera?

You have the ability to interact with the bobby face to face, he can ask you questions but you (within reason) can ask him questions back.

I supposed you could stand there shouting at the cameras and they could do one nod for yes, two nods for no.

I think this is fairly unlikely to work though as I've never heard the phrase "If you want to know the time, ask a CCTV camera" used.

User23 ...... you didn't answer my question above

USER 23?.....................ABUSER23!

Quoted from scaramouche

What a lot of bunkum this man spouts!

There are 3 people who should be banned from local forums User23, GMR and Richard Garvie perhaps also Simon Kirby for his private vendetta against Newbury Town Council

Ban User 23? .... leave the poor sad creature alone, his ego feeds on such remarks, I find him vaguely entertaining how he always deflects anything critical of WBC by introducing a non sequitur and then ignores any response by anyone who takes the bait of replying to that instead of the original topic.

Quoted from user23.3

You have the ability to interact with the bobby face to face, he can ask you questions but you (within reason) can ask him questions back.

I supposed you could stand there shouting at the cameras and they could do one nod for yes, two nods for no.

I think this is fairly unlikely to work though as I've never heard the phrase "If you want to know the time, ask a CCTV camera" used.

You could save yourself a lot of typing by just saying "no there is no difference"?  

Quoted from user23.3

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

Newbury survived for centuries without a police force - should we scrap that too?

Quoted from PaulaM

User23 ...... you didn't answer my question above

I don't think spending hundreds of thousands of pounds to stop kids bringing bikes into their shops is a cost effective solution.

Didn't your own CCTV record it?

Quoted from Cognosco

You could save yourself a lot of typing by just saying "no there is no difference"?  

I explained the differences.

Why isn't CCTV used consistently? If we're going to have it in Newbury let's use to to help enforce parking violations for instance. How about an instant ticket for anyone parking illegally? Then, as they're known offenders have them watched as soon as they enter the town through number plate recognition.

Sound good to everyone?

Quoted from user23.3

Why isn't CCTV used consistently? If we're going to have it in Newbury let's use to to help enforce parking violations for instance. How about an instant ticket for anyone parking illegally? Then, as they're known offenders have them watched as soon as they enter the town through number plate recognition.

Sometimes user your reasoning defies all logic and I often wonder if you actually believe in what you are posting, or whether you are as other contributors here seem to think, just a wind up merchant.

By the way, you still haven't added westberks.gov.uk as an "A" name on your DNS records.

Come on User23, who has put you up to this? Are you deliberately trying to rubbish the CCTV network so your mates can axe it??? You are always on message with Planet Jones, is it now policy to get rid of it completely because of the embarrassment it has caused you all after you all lied to cover up the problems???

Honesty is always the best policy...

Quoted from user23.3

Didn't your own CCTV record it?

Nice to have something to look back on in the evenings when there is nothing on TV but unlikely to be used by the police especially as far as they are concerned a criminal offence has not taken place. The same applies to the monitored CCTV, it in itself would not prove a case but and this is the important aspect of CCTV, it alerts the authorities to the fact that a crime or some other form of anti social behaviour may be in progress or, after the event, especially after a crime has been commited, provide the lead which allows them to gather useable evidence which may be supported by monitored CCTV images.
London already uses number plate recognition, another form of CCTV to punish drivers who enter the central zones. Using that to track known offenders as they enter Newbury would be a good thing, especially as the number of dangerous metal thefts are increasing.
As far as illegal parking on CCTV is concerned, that is a non runner as I suspect you know very well, as the rules do not allow it. But, it's always possible, speed cameras, another form of CCTV record the number plate and speed and the summons appears through the post.

Quoted from user23.3

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

To suggest that the population of Newbury is criminal and anti-social and it's just CCTV preventing them Newbury from being overrun by such behaviour is just wrong.

I say let's save some money and scrap the lot.

Newbury survived a long time without a council website and other things like tourist information officers, I say lets save the money and scrap the lot.  Does that sound good too User23?

Quoted from user23.3

The old days? Newbury survived for centuries without CCTV just fine.

To suggest that the population of Newbury is criminal and anti-social and it's just CCTV preventing them Newbury from being overrun by such behaviour is just wrong.

I say let's save some money and scrap the lot.

In the old days the council used pen and paper do you suggest we get rid of all the councils computers and IT Staff?  

Quoted from brian

Nice to have something to look back on in the evenings when there is nothing on TV but unlikely to be used by the police especially as far as they are concerned a criminal offence has not taken place.

I thought some of the sales pitch with CCTV was that it is a deterrent?

Quoted from user23.3

I thought some of the sales pitch with CCTV was that it is a deterrent?

Its effect as a deterrent is debatable.  It is the security system, of which the CCTV forms a part, that is a deterrent, not just simply CCTV.

Quoted from Greenham Common

Its effect as a deterrent is debatable.  It is the security system, of which the CCTV forms a part, that is a deterrent, not just simply CCTV.

Doesn't matter now anyhow User has done a complete u turn and WBC's Official unofficial mouthpiece has decided the CCTV should be scrapped as it is no longer any use and just causes sic "innocent people to commit crimes"  

Quoted from Cognosco

Doesn't matter now anyhow User has done a complete u turn and WBC's Official unofficial mouthpiece has decided the CCTV should be scrapped as it is no longer any use and just causes sic "innocent people to commit crimes"  

If you're going to put something in quotes, you probably need to check that they've actually said it.

Quoted from user23.3

If you're going to put something in quotes, you probably need to check that they've actually said it.

You forget to add Nah Nah Nah Nah Nah?

Quoted from user23.3

I don't think spending hundreds of thousands of pounds to stop kids bringing bikes into their shops is a cost effective solution.

Didn't your own CCTV record it?I explained the differences.

Why isn't CCTV used consistently? If we're going to have it in Newbury let's use to to help enforce parking violations for instance. How about an instant ticket for anyone parking illegally? Then, as they're known offenders have them watched as soon as they enter the town through number plate recognition.

Sound good to everyone?

I understand number plate recognition is going to be used for the parkway bridge when it is changed to buses and taxi only.  Could be extended.

Quoted from user23.3

Perhaps it's the climate of fear that CCTV can create, when everyone is watched some feel under suspicion even though they've done no wrong..

I agree here. Being constantly spied upon is horrid. And the time and energy it wastes having to take strange routes around town to avoid as many cams as possible is a real pita. I realise its only one of many ways the government is tracking my every move. But its one way too many.

Its obvious, they are useless for crime prevention. Because every time I've been assaulted within the town centre. They have always been pointing the wrong way or just mysteriously lacking footage at that moment in time.

Quoted from scaramouche

What a lot of bunkum this man spouts!

There are 3 people who should be banned from local forums User23, GMR and Richard Garvie perhaps also Simon Kirby for his private vendetta against Newbury Town Council

Isn't calling for censorship of views differing from your own. Exactly what you were accusing and complaining of the NWN forum of doing? You make my hypocrisy hurt.

Fair play to BB. Most things (with the exception of his buddies computer shop) are fair game here.

Quoted from PaulaM

User I worked in Bart Street for 2 years..... south end where there are no cameras. I have had scum snatch stock from my window display.  I have been forced to lock myself in the shop on one or two occasions due to the fact there are druggies sitting on my windowsil as high as kites. I have St Barts school kids who think its funny to bring their bikes into the shop and swear and spit at my staff.  Then of course there are the endless piles of dog sh*t to clear up every morning. It IS a minority group - and I know most of their names nowadays.  However, I can assure you it was bloody intimidating cashing and locking up particularly after dark.  If I could have walked out of the premises at night knowing "big brother" was watching me I may well have stayed another year, but quite frankly enough was enough.  

What I would ask you DIRECTLY is would you be happy for your mother/wife/daughter to leave work under those circumstances every night ? ..... or would you feel a little more comfortable if you knew someone somewhere was keeping a helpful eye out for her ?

USER 23 - YOU STILL DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION - skirting around the issue - are you "practicing being a politician ?  Presumably you would prefer your female family members to work in a cosy little office with keypad entry systems .... somewhere like WBC maybe ?

I don't think any contributor to this forum is under any compulsion to respond to questions asked of them, NO MATTER HOW LOUD YOU SHOUT........

Quoted from PaulaM

USER 23 - YOU STILL DIDN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION - skirting around the issue - are you "practicing being a politician ?  Presumably you would prefer your female family members to work in a cosy little office with keypad entry systems .... somewhere like WBC maybe ?

I did. I asked you why didn't your own CCTV record these events?

Quoted from MoonPhoenix

Isn't calling for censorship of views differing from your own. Exactly what you were accusing and complaining of the NWN forum of doing? You make my hypocrisy hurt.

There are differing views, there is argument and there is trolling.

Quoted from richard.garvie

Maybe the plan was to say everything was working but lead us to believe it was useless. They could then scrap it and nobody would complain?

Seriously though, we do need CCTV and rather than sending it to Windsor, they should of merged it with the CCTV operation at the Kennet Centre. Might not have saved £250k a year, but would have saved a lot and local knowledge would have been retained.

Richard, just a few short years ago WBC were offerd the chance to improve their CCTV system and monitor another towns system at the same time.
There was NO financial costs involved to WBC to upgrade their system, however they would have recieved a very substantial income form another Borough Council.
After many meetings and discussions they refused to grab the opportunity and decided that they would continue on their own.
I am sure that WBC were planning to get rid of the CCTV some 7 years ago.  

Quoted from user23.3

I did. I asked you why didn't your own CCTV record these events?

And how does that answer the question - would you be happy for your mother/wife/daughter to leave work under those circumstances every night ??

Quoted from brian newman

Richard, just a few short years ago WBC were offerd the chance to improve their CCTV system and monitor another towns system at the same time.
There was NO financial costs involved to WBC to upgrade their system, however they would have recieved a very substantial income form another Borough Council.
After many meetings and discussions they refused to grab the opportunity and decided that they would continue on their own.
I am sure that WBC were planning to get rid of the CCTV some 7 years ago.  

I've heard lots of stories like that. I just don't understand half of what they come up with.

Quoted from blackdog

And how does that answer the question - would you be happy for your mother/wife/daughter to leave work under those circumstances every night ??

It doesn't ... perhaps they all work in cosy offices too - with entry keypads and CCTV in reception.  Are there CCTV cameras in WBC Offices - funded by the tax payer perhaps ?

I also find it offensive that that he thinks kids coming in on bikes and spitting at my staff is to be scoffed at.

Oh, and one more thing, there is NOTHING WORSE than having a employee who is right up your a@@e !

Quoted from PaulaM

It doesn't ... perhaps they all work in cosy offices too - with entry keypads and CCTV in reception.  Are there CCTV cameras in WBC Offices - funded by the tax payer perhaps ?

I also find it offensive that that he thinks kids coming in on bikes and spitting at my staff is to be scoffed at.

Oh, and one more thing, there is NOTHING WORSE than having a employee who is right up your a@@e !

You haven't answered the question Paula. Why didn't your own CCTV pick this activity up?

Quoted from user23.3

You haven't answered the question Paula. Why didn't your own CCTV pick this activity up?

No, User23 my own CCTV cameras were "dummy" cameras so obviously they didn't record anything ...... to be effective they have to work !! Shall I attempt for a third time to get you to answer my question ?

Quoted from PaulaM

No, User23 my own CCTV cameras were "dummy" cameras so obviously they didn't record anything ...... to be effective they have to work !!

Well then, you know what his reply will be, don't you? If you were that concerned about the safety of you, your shop and employees, why did you only have dummy cameras installed?

In fact, when I think about it, couldn't your staff reasonably expect you to install working CCTV in the same way that you want WBC to install cameras in Bart street? Just trying to see both sides of it.

A cheap in-store single camera CCTV system can be installed for under £100 to put your staff more at ease (as they will know there is no CCTV if some incident happened in store)  And on the plus side, if you DID happen to be visited by the local petty criminals you could sell the tape of the incident to the Police Camera Action type TV programmes and make back your investment!

Quoted from massifheed

In fact, when I think about it, couldn't your staff reasonably expect you to install working CCTV in the same way that you want WBC to install cameras in Bart street? Just trying to see both sides of it.

CCTV just makes people commit more crime!  

Well we can debate as much as we like, but it appears even the experts aren't sure.  Reading this it appears CCTV doesn't prevent crime, but helps solve crime, and saves the courts money as it is key evidence ?  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2071496.stm

I know, I was referring to a comment user23 made a while back.  CCTV can reduce some types of crime but it is conditional.  I heard of a community that had a local CCTV system installed and residents could monitor it on the Internet.  Apparently crime fell when that was installed.

Quoted from Greenham Common

I know, I was referring to a comment user23 made a while back.  CCTV can reduce some types of crime but it is conditional.  I heard of a community that had a local CCTV system installed and residents could monitor it on the Internet.  Apparently crime fell when that was installed.

The "hooligans" didn't like the idea that their mums could see them  

Quoted from PaulaM

No, User23 my own CCTV cameras were "dummy" cameras so obviously they didn't record anything ...... to be effective they have to work !!  

You can't be that convinced of how well it functions as a deterrent then if you wouldn't install working CCTV in your own shop.

As a previous poster said, it only costs around £100 for a simple set-up.

The answer to your question is no, but then they work in establishments that value their staff so this is unlikely to happen.

Quoted from user23.3

You haven't answered the question Paula. Why didn't your own CCTV pick this activity up?

As Paul has stated her CCTV is more or less that same as WBC they don't work?  

Quoted from Cognosco

As Paul has stated her CCTV is more or less that same as WBC they don't work?  

Glad someones awake  

Quoted from PaulaM

Glad someones awake  

well, not quite - you are a Paula, not a Paul....

Quoted from Cognosco

As Paul has stated her CCTV is more or less that same as WBC they don't work?  

I don't think there is any WBC CCTV at the far end of Bart st, working, or not.

Quoted from user23.3

Why isn't CCTV used consistently? If we're going to have it in Newbury let's use to to help enforce parking violations for instance. How about an instant ticket for anyone parking illegally? Then, as they're known offenders have them watched as soon as they enter the town through number plate recognition.

Sound good to everyone?

Be careful what you wish for!

It would effect user anyway; he walks to work and town.

Quoted from greenmeanie61

Be careful what you wish for!

As if a dork in a daft green suit has any influence.

Quoted from 78

I don't think there is any WBC CCTV at the far end of Bart st, working, or not.

Which could possibly be, why it is now the favourite haunt for the local dregs ??

If it is as bad as people make out, perhaps the local police should be paying more attention there, especially now the CCTV system is 'working fine everywhere else'.

Quoted from Greenham Common

If it is as bad as people make out, perhaps the local police should be paying more attention there, especially now the CCTV system is 'working fine everywhere else'.

They do ....... and then they get slatted on another thread for there being too many of them  

Quoted from user23.3

You can't be that convinced of how well it functions as a deterrent then if you wouldn't install working CCTV in your own shop.

As a previous poster said, it only costs around £100 for a simple set-up.

The answer to your question is no, but then they work in establishments that value their staff so this is unlikely to happen.

Sadly, I was niave - "nothing will happen to me" sort of attitude  

In what way do these establishments value their staff ? Surely you are not going to say they have working CCTV .... having dismissed the idea ??  Either way, what goes on outside in the street was and still is the issue for me.

Hear, hear. I think a lot of the issues would be resolved if Turning Point was moved away from where it is beside the school and maybe put down by the police station in one of the empt units there. And why can't the utility money be spend on a new CCTV camera? Is it because they would have to pay Windsor more to exceed the 40 cameras that they view at present?