I believe it's the other content within the bill that Labour oppose. Ed called on Clegg to split the bill to allow AV through but Cameron won't allow it!!!
And here, Richard lies the problem. You concern yourself with 'winners and losers', a system we've had, in various guises, for a few hundred years and that no longer seems to represent either the society we live in, or the aspirations of the public.
You aren't elected as a winner, you're elected to represent your constituents. But you can't, because some of those representations will inevitably compete. It's like being environmental enough to be anti bypass, but pro the transport lobby enough to campaign for it. I'm after consensus, not the continuing politics of triumphalism.
We shouldn't do ANYTHING in society unless at least 70% of people want to. As things stand, we will never see a government that has the support of even half the people of this country. Is it fair that the majority should be ruled by a minority, or should parliament reflect the wishes of the majority?
Sadly this idea falls at the first hurdle - we obviously don't all agree that FPTP needs changing.
Exactly right, not a local level anyway which is what we're talking about. PR favours parties over people so the independent candidate stands much less chance of getting elected under PR. FPP is a much better system at local level as all votes are counted equally, unlike PR.
Here's how it works, in this scenario there are two seats up for grabs, of course usually there'd be a lot more. BrianB stands for election against three members of the Labour Party, Tony, Gordon and Ed, on that order on the list. BrianB gets 700 votes, Tony gets 600, Gordon 500 and Ed 301 votes.
So what happens, BrianB gets elected, right? Nope the Tony takes the first seat for the Labour Party. But there's two seats so BrianB wins the second, doesn't he, he got the most votes? Nope, under the D'Hondt system of PR (used for the EU Elections) Gordon takes the second seat also for the Labour Party. Seem fair and equal to you, Gordon and Tony got elected but BrianB got the most votes.
There is no point discussing the relative merits of any particular system, if we can't agree that the present one needs to be changed. I can think of other examples of things in our society that have remained unchanged for hundreds of years - don't we keep them in musea?
All you argue for is to keep people dissempowered. I find nothing empowering about having someone represent me at the law-making body of this country, who is philosphicaly opposed to my views. The same goes for having some say in the future of my town.
It is better to try and fail than never to try at all, isn't it? To stand still is to stagnate.
All you argue for is to keep people dissempowered. I find nothing empowering about having someone represent me at the law-making body of this country, who is philosphicaly opposed to my views. The same goes for having some say in the future of my town.
I've explained exactly why PR is worse at local level for the independent candidate with an example of it giving political parties a big advantage over the single person standing for election. Hardy fair or "empowering" is it.
Now stop waffling unless you can produce an example that shows the reverse with it giving more power to the individual than the big national parties.
How many different ways of delivering PR have you looked at? Why pick on one that you say doesn't work, now give an example of one that you know does work so that we know you are taking an informed and balanced view.
How many different ways of delivering PR have you looked at? Why pick on one that you say doesn't work, now give an example of one that you know does work so that we know you are taking an informed and balanced view.
Can't, can ya?
Now stop waffling and do the research.
I've picked the system we already use in this country for EU elections. If we switched to PR for local elections as you want, D'Hondt is very likely the version of PR we'd use. Surely you already knew this being an expert on PR?
What you've done there is asked me to do exactly what I asked of you, then said I'm waffling, which is what I said of you. I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
So, I'll ask again, let's see your example of PR giving the individual, independent candidate power or at least an example where their votes are worth equal to those of the parties.
I've picked the system we already use in this country for EU elections. If we switched to PR for local elections as you want, D'Hondt is very likely the version of PR we'd use. Surely you already knew this being an expert on PR?
What you've done there is asked me to do exactly what I asked of you, then said I'm waffling, which is what I said of you. I suppose imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
So, I'll ask again, let's see your example of PR giving the individual, independent candidate power or at least an example where their votes are worth equal to those of the parties.
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