Quoted from Bartholomew

So, if I understand what you're saying (and the rest of the thread), the TCP membership is unelected but selected by its own members on its own criteria. It then makes decisions and recommendations to fundamentally change Newbury. And it also has members who have funding to make this happen.

As Alice said, "curiouser and curiouser". Brings visions of Mad Hatters and the rest of Alice's experiences

The TCP makes decisions and recomendations - but as it has minimal funding it doesn't actually do anything concrete apart from hiring the Events Manager.  

If WBC chooses to follow their recommendations it is WBC's choice - a choice made by democratically elected councillors. The Pavilion in the Park and the other Vision projects are following WBC's Vision 2025 plan.

Quoted from blackdog

The TCP makes decisions and recomendations - but as it has minimal funding it doesn't actually do anything concrete apart from hiring the Events Manager.  

If WBC chooses to follow their recommendations it is WBC's choice - a choice made by democratically elected councillors. The Pavilion in the Park and the other Vision projects are following WBC's Vision 2025 plan.

Have you any examples of WBC not following what the TCP has suggested to support what you say?

Quoted from blackdog

The TCP makes decisions and recomendations - but as it has minimal funding it doesn't actually do anything concrete apart from hiring the Events Manager.  

If WBC chooses to follow their recommendations it is WBC's choice - a choice made by democratically elected councillors. The Pavilion in the Park and the other Vision projects are following WBC's Vision 2025 plan.

Am I wrong in saying that many of the members of the TCP also hold dual roles, namely West Berkshire Council, Newbury Town Council, Greenham Trust and the architects who designed the new propoal?

Do you know who produced the Vision 2025 plan?

So, let me get this right, its a 'good thing' to have a body comprising of businesses and other organisations who are not elected influencing decisions and submitting ideas. Whereas having a public Forum for the electorate to come along and do the self same thing  is a 'bad thing'.  We don't do democracy in West Berkshire, do we?  

Quoted from Bartholomew

Do you know who produced the Vision 2025 plan?

Yes. It was a chap called David Appleton (blackdog's old matey!). In 2002, our Dave (we pay his wages you see) was tasked by the Supreme Leader to come up with the 50 questions that formed the basis of the Cartergrad Project. Cultural Commissar Appleton was thus able to dust down a few pet projects and sneak them past before you wake up.

Such gems included this one, which was actually put forward by the car-hating Lib Dems in 2000.

Q. Do you like traffic coming through the Market Place on market days?
A. No. (hey, who does?)
Action: Remove car park, ban only 90% of vehicles, and exile the kebab vans to create al fresco culture.
result: We don't need to repeat that again!

It was all very different back in 2004 though. The TCP was the TCMSG and you could get a seat at the table for £500 a year. (Cannons gym were on it for a while!). What a bargain for the heads up on loads of inside knowledge.

Meanwhile, our council tax soared.  Then the Tories came into power, promising to review the projects, result...steady as she goes Captain.

Quoted from Meddler

Yes. It was a chap called David Appleton (blackdog's old matey!).

Not sure I'd call David a mate - but we are indeed acquainted. I guess I have had perhaps half a dozen short conversations with him in the four or five years since we met.

I can't say as I have found many of his proposals to my taste.

Quoted from user23.3

Have you any examples of WBC not following what the TCP has suggested to support what you say?

I'm not sure what the TCP has ever suggested - as far as I can see they are used by WBC to provide feedback on their schemes rather than generators of schemes.  The overall scheme is WBC's (Vision 2025 as produced, apparently, by my old mate). Based on that Patrick Griffin (who seems to be the only enterprising architect taking advantage of the opportunity) comes up with another scheme and the ball starts rolling.

The whole situation has been put together by our elected councillors and kept going by our elected councillors.  If you don't like it vote for someone else (if only there was someone else).

Quoted from Bartholomew

Am I wrong in saying that many of the members of the TCP also hold dual roles, namely West Berkshire Council, Newbury Town Council, Greenham Trust and the architects who designed the new propoal?

You are not wrong - all members of the TCP have other roles.  They are representatives of businesses and organisations with an interest in the town centre (some altruistic, some pecuniary).

Given Patrick Griffin's predominance in the genaration of Vision schemes it is certainly odd that he is a member of a group WBC use to comment/critique these schemes.

I am no great fan of the TCP - but I do think that WBC should not be allowed to pass the buck on these schemes.  When I went to the library exhibition there was a WBC councillor, a town councillor, WBC officer and a representative of Sutton Griffin.  I'm not sure any of these are members of the TCP - but they were certainly demonstrating what I would call 'ownership' of this daft scheme.

Quoted from blackdog

Not sure I'd call David a mate - but we are indeed acquainted. I guess I have had perhaps half a dozen short conversations with him in the four or five years since we met.

I can't say as I have found many of his proposals to my taste.



I'm not sure what the TCP has ever suggested - as far as I can see they are used by WBC to provide feedback on their schemes rather than generators of schemes.  The overall scheme is WBC's (Vision 2025 as produced, apparently, by my old mate). Based on that Patrick Griffin (who seems to be the only enterprising architect taking advantage of the opportunity) comes up with another scheme and the ball starts rolling.

The whole situation has been put together by our elected councillors and kept going by our elected councillors.  If you don't like it vote for someone else (if only there was someone else).

You are not wrong - all members of the TCP have other roles.  They are representatives of businesses and organisations with an interest in the town centre (some altruistic, some pecuniary).

Given Patrick Griffin's predominance in the genaration of Vision schemes it is certainly odd that he is a member of a group WBC use to comment/critique these schemes.

I am no great fan of the TCP - but I do think that WBC should not be allowed to pass the buck on these schemes.  When I went to the library exhibition there was a WBC councillor, a town councillor, WBC officer and a representative of Sutton Griffin.  I'm not sure any of these are members of the TCP - but they were certainly demonstrating what I would call 'ownership' of this daft scheme.

Looking at the minutes of the TCP it seems, as far as i can make out, there was a committee present which consisted of 11 members involved in business, 2 from the police and one from Newbury College. I don't know where the seven absentees fit in except for Patrick Griffin (architect). In addition ("attending") there are 6 from WBC, 2 from NTC, 1 from the police and one from Sutton Griffin.

The base committee seems pretty biaised towards commerce which I find strange when the major project they are currently promoting is the Pavilion which is a leisure facility. Does anyone know why those without financial interests are not included?

Quoted from Bartholomew

The base committee seems pretty biaised towards commerce which I find strange when the major project they are currently promoting is the Pavilion which is a leisure facility. Does anyone know why those without financial interests are not included?

One of the non-attendees, Jeremy Holden-Bell represents the Newbury Society.  What other local groups should be included?

Quoted from blackdog

One of the non-attendees, Jeremy Holden-Bell represents the Newbury Society.  What other local groups should be included?

What other stakeholders are there?

Quoted from Greenham Common

What other stakeholders are there?

By using "stakeholder" (One who holds the bets in a game or contest. One who has a share or an interest, as in an enterprise.)  you are implying that there is some commercial interest.
My point is that there really needs to be involvement from other groups that are not interested in the profits from this but the usage of it. Candidates could be youth groups, sports and leisure groups or anyone else that is likely to use the facilities rather than see a financial incentive in it.  

Quoted from Bartholomew

By using "stakeholder" (One who holds the bets in a game or contest. One who has a share or an interest, as in an enterprise.)  you are implying that there is some commercial interest.

Not at all, read my initial impression in this thread.

Quoted from Bartholomew

My point is that there really needs to be involvement from other groups that are not interested in the profits from this but the usage of it. Candidates could be youth groups, sports and leisure groups or anyone else that is likely to use the facilities rather than see a financial incentive in it.

I totally agree.  There seems to be dearth of parties other than those with a primary commercial interest.  First impressions, including reading the NWN, this pavilion scheme has been screwed up.  I think some people with influence on the TCP should consider their position.  At very least, WBC should treat with more caution, the 'advice' they receive from the TCP.

The common recent usage of 'stakeholder' implies someone who has an interest in the topic - not necessarily a financial interest.  Though I suppose we all have a financial interest if WBC money is being spent.

I was really wondering what groups, apart from the Newbury Society, exist and perhaps should be represented.  One I would suggest would be the voluntary sector, someone to represent the interests of local charities.  Another would be a representative of the disabled (if I'm allowed to use that word anymore).

But I don't know of a consumers' group that would represent shoppers or leisure facility users - is there one?

Quoted from blackdog

Not sure I'd call David a mate - but we are indeed acquainted. I guess I have had perhaps half a dozen short conversations with him in the four or five years since we met.

You've failed to mention he used to be your boss there, well boss', boss', boss.

Quoted from user23.3

You've failed to mention he used to be your boss there, well boss', boss', boss.

Probably because he never was my boss. I realise that it is a sad void in my life but I have never worked for WBC.